I have seen many Telsa owners being very defensive when someone even says one car does something better than a Tesla. Part of the appeal of buying an EV is the expectation that it will save you money in the future. The only way to avoid the fines if you dont meet the quota is to purchase green credits. We wove through the neighborhood and headed towards one of the longer stretches of road. EV adoption seems to be at a tipping point now, with 'ordinary folk' starting to order them too. In 2022, the base price of the cheapest model, the Model 3, stood at $48,200. This of course does not apply to all Tesla owners, but certainly applies to the large majority of those that I know. I own a model S 2017 Worst purchase of my life. Many such people function best in an environment like computer programming or any rule-based job like security. I am pretty sure It's a poluting car. Of course, there have always been staged incidents of supercharger blocking, charge cable and coal rolling too. The problem is that it is 250 miles from my house. I've driven them and still hate them. My second attempt took two hands. I mean it's a community. This seems counterintuitive because at the very moment you need to look at your mirrors the car is actively taking your eyes away from them and asking you to look at a screen. I agree that Tesla fanboys are an annoying lot but they are the minority. Tesla fanboys will tell me that majority of my issues are due to having used Model S and newer models won't have these issues, or Model 3s have resolved many of my concerns. Perhaps you think or that technology is aiding to the slow demise of human civilization. 1. 2023 Toyota RAV4 Hybrid Wait Times Prove Consumers' Passion Overpowers Patience! We know mainstream media seems to have a bias against Tesla, and that might sense since most advertisers with the biggest wallets are big oil and the legacy automakers.And maybe Im wrong here and Porsches, Audis and Mercedes get egged, keyed and vandalized all the time and since they dont have built in cameras running all the time, theyre not as widely known but Im just curious to get the communitys take and also the non Tesla owners perspective on what they see from their point of view when it comes to Tesla as a brand and what it stands for that seems to be so polarizing for people. I hopped in with Kevin in the front passenger seat, and he coached me through the basics of getting settled, then we headed off. Whats so bad about loving Tesla so much? ICE EPA estimates are not this off. We all have to learn to laugh at ourselves from time to time, and some of Teslas most fervent fans do warrant a bit of laughter here and there. Those who do not like Tesla have never driven or owned one. You have to work to get ahold of your door handles and you don't have to worry about gas prices. We get it, Tesla cars are fast. Apart from owning an expensive electric car, some of them also happen to think they're better than everyone else because they "care for the environment." 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In other hand Tesla really did a great job on EV, but I would say I order the BMW IX. the people that bought it often have something to prove by buying it. And I never doubt my feeling. If you know a driver who has purchased one of these EVs, youve probably heard all about it. Its more expensive models took the biggest hit. But there have been numerous occasions when Tesla owners would often cut the line just because they think theirEV is more important than someone else's. You have to work to get ahold of your door handles and you don't have to worry about gas prices. We toyed around with the voice commands and some of the "easter egg" features of the car. Like, we get it! Overpriced torquey aluminum cans. Related: Teslas Autopilot Vs Full Self Driving Mode (How They Compare). I know they follow EPA guidelines, but still sucks that you get lot less range than what you'd expect. I believe that we are heading into a new world of transportation in a speedy way. It is that simple. Was there anything that could make this car better? Create an account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations. 5. Teslas aren't bad electric cars; it's the people who buy them that mostly annoy everyone. Why? It also means that Tesla makes money off of their cars, while traditional dealerships make money from their service departments. tesla owners are annoyingdeathblade counter ability lost ark. Its really no worse than somebody who buys a new Mustang GT and thinking its the greatest performance car on the planet. While it is great and all, there are still other EVs out there that are also worth your money. I hate they without the front dash panel or cockpit. If you THINK Tesla drivers come off as snobs, that is on you. react-hooks crud example github. The prices vary based on the year and model of the car, as well as which specific plan the driver chooses, but standalone inspections range anywhere from $475 to $750 per visit (not including repairs). On the other hand, cut Tesla a bit of slack. What makes Tesla fanboys different from, say, Porsche fanboys? My first try to get in the car, the handle slipped and the door closed. Thus, we work to remain neutral and not dive deeply into the situation since it's truly a ridiculous mess on both sides. Just like some car people think every vehicle needs to be manual, N/A, and RWD. We are JT Legal Group and we're on your side. But if you are coming down to tesla from MacLaren, porsche or equvalent you see the problem. "As a Tesla owner, I approve this message," @saltnpepperdad said. For what youre paying, it seems like there should already be a plethora of options. Owner Says First Auctioned 2023 GR Corolla Sold At A Loss No more BMW police cars: German brand halts sales to UK Ford Bronco US sales closes in on Jeep Wrangler, 30,67 Mazdas turbo inline-6 will boast 340 hp and 369 ft-lb. It was the jubilation of the body, mind, and soul. Press J to jump to the feed. Just like every community it has snobs. Don't get us wrong, Tesla cars are tough. Tesla's price cuts have been the biggest among new-car sellers. It seems they defend any and everything related to the company more so than any other car company. But apparently, some people are too entitled to use it. Chances are, ostentatious drivers won't even bother to do that. Hello, Im Tristan Perry, the person behind Green Car Future. It was the jubilation of the body, mind, and soul. I couldn't easily change radio stations A/C settings, and had to stop to figure out how to adjust the side mirrors. Sterile, dated, pathetic undesign on Prius level. 2023 Toyota Tacoma's Start-Stop Error Message Signals the Demographic Shift to Minimalist Trucks, The 2024 - 2026 New Subaru Model Preview And What You Should Wait For. The most critical item heard and discussed about is service experience. Well, of course nothing is wrong with it. 1 As it turns out, some stereotypes regarding the EV brand are well-deserved while others arent. And a classic one is vandalizing public Tesla Supercharging stations. All I knew about him is that he owned two Tesla Model 3, one of them being the performance model, and he has a fresh job. And I realy love cars and driving and because of that I am taxi driver in Belgium with Mercedes e-class of course. You can't expect a new method of transportation to be perfect within a few years. Related: Here's What A Mercedes-Benz S-Class Looks Like With A Tesla-Like Yoke. Until then, well just have to put up with the annoying Instagram posts and other quirks of people who own Model 3s and the like. My wife got a Ionia electric. Of course, the pickup truck blocking trick (known as ICEing among Tesla owners, short for "internal combustion engine") might be more about aggressive luddites than it is about people hating Tesla in particular. Answer (1 of 23): Being active in a Facebook group of Tesla Model 3 owners in the Netherlands and Belgium (2000+ members) I have so far heard from 1 person that he did not buy again a Tesla. When I got to drive the car, too many things are controlled by a screen you have to look at to get things to work. I don't like not having gauges that are easy to read right in front of me. Maybe you do not like Elon Musk, so what, the car is still phenomenal. Yeah, they're torquey. that's literally it. I think the biggest trick that Tesla has pulled here is creating tens of thousands of car enthusiasts who know absolutely nothing about cars other than the one theyve bought. #tesla #frunktotrunk #tesla. Cleantech produced numerous indistinguishable products under the umbrella of green energy, an overly broad goal. All too often, people who own a Model S or another model make a big deal about how much theyre doing to save the environment. Tires need to be replaced more often, thanks to the weight of the vehicle, and that big battery won't last forever. We get it, okay? This Morning delivers a daily email digest of the news curated for anyone interested in entrepreneurship. Also, for the record, I do not want to charge my car, or get a charging station installed in my garage. Perkowitz says he hasn't bought a new Tesla because of Musk's right-wing views, his tumultuous Twitter acquisition, and his radical emphasis on free speech, which Perkowitz believes will allow misinformation to run rampant on Twitter. Fourth, Tesla cars depend on Tesla mothership for proper functioning, and mothership can totally control or remotely shut down your Tesla car. Just like regular fuel-powered cars, Tesla and other EVs can also at times, be similar. Tesla has done a lot for the EV industry, but owners are still facing countless problems with the brand's vehicles. Apparently, some of these drivers aim to set records every now and then which can cause grief to the other drivers on the road. Having the newest and most advanced thing is very important to them. We all benefit from more charging infrastructure. From ridiculous puns torude statements, you're sure to find one or the other on any loitering Tesla sharing the road with you. No, you've got it all wrong. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast. They can't just enjoy their choice, they have to incessantly denigrate and belittle other EV owners choices. For environmentally-conscious gearheads, these cars are the ultimate choice. My Tesla Experience There are quite a few reasons why people tend to gravitate toward big names like Tesla. However, the truth of the matter is that even if youre not paying to replace those parts, they are all too often much poorer quality than were all led to believe. From A-list superstars to those who own a Tesla, there's just something about being able to afford expensive cars that makes some people look down on everyone else. There have also been dozens of documented keyings, the hit and runs and leggings too. I decided to upgrade to a model y (still awaiting delivery), but have many reservations .One is that Tesla fanboys are very annoying (much worse that Prius snobs who I think was exaggerated). Tesla owners could be accused of having a love/hate relationship with their vehicles. Tesla really got an ugly egg style, and I dont get use to no front grill car style. No seriously, I have gone into my garage and just sat in my car and listened to music and had a great time. There are quite a few reasons why people tend to gravitate toward big names like Tesla. FILE - Vince Patton, a new Tesla owner, demonstrates on Dec. 8, 2021, on a closed course in Portland, Ore., how he can play video games on the vehicle's console while driving. Later on, dove into some of the other features of the vehicle. This Mechanic Who Owns Both Answers the Question, Boost Your 2023 Toyota Tundra's Towing Power, But Watch For These Issues. Tesla has done a lot for the EV industry, but owners are still facing countless problems with the brand's vehicles. I have worked for 40 years and am treating myself. Remember the South Park episode about the "smug" problem caused by Prius drivers? If youre annoyed by people who own Teslas, youre in good company. I never owned a Tesla before, I did test drive a Model Y and my friends Model 3. As launch-customer PepsiCo gets its first Semis, questions remain about the tractor's price, weight, batteries, and exact power figures. Basically you're getting a 360 view of the. It was strange at first but took very little time to adapt to it. But some Tesla owners' temperaments and habits can be outright annoying on a whole new level, like the ones below. Tesla's Sentry Mode has not only helped Tesla owners feel more secure, but has empowered them with a valuable tool to fight back against helplessness after a crime in which the criminal is not . Also, no one has ever claimed that Tesla has full self-driving. MUCH faster, great autopilot in rush hour, and the convenience of charging overnight at home. However, while all these make so many gravitate towards Tesla, there's a lot more to this manufacturer than meets the eye. In todays article, we endeavor to answer these questions and more on Tesla fanboys. My latest adventure took me into the Tesla world with a Model 3 Dual-Motor Performance. So I will be short and sweet and sorry if I offend anyone. But after entering the playing field and riding on the competitive curve of the auto manufacturing world for over 16 years, it wouldn't be too early to say that Tesla is surely a success. Supercharging time is ALWAYS much longer than what is claimed or what my screen estimate states. Finally : Fucck off tesla fanboys, disguting piece of shitt. My brother in law is a Tesla Fanatic. It burns through 1-2 miles just sitting idle and even though I have free supercharging for life, having to do it once a week after driving only 30 miles is insane. They also especially love to bash Prius, which in my opinion makes no sense. But one thing has caught my eye, and it has to do with the Semi's windows: They work like an old Dodge Caravan's rear . I throw things at Tesla's whenever I get a chance. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts, STG1 2016 VW GTI DSG | 2019 Rabbit GTI 6MT, 2017 V8 Supercharged Range Rover Sport | 2021 Tesla Model 3, '17 Tahoe LT, '16 F10 535i, Corn-Fed '10 N54 135i. As cars become more autonomous, individual drivers may become less and less responsible for accidents, and the world will be a safer place. Staying involved with what is coming allows me to give accurate information to all of my readers and speculate what is going to happen. Everything became a blur as I was thrown deep into the plush vegan leather seats. The fanbase has also been growing exponentially, and is made up mostly of both current and aspiring Tesla owners. Are there other reasons for people not liking Tesla, sure. She also likes cooking and coming up with her own recipes. It was the absolute best driving experience I have ever had in a vehicle, and I have driven over 100 different sports cars, pickups, and SUVs. Some have even raised red flags over issues of hacking Teslas for a new world of issues. Tesla is taking across-the-board price cuts on its electric vehicles to prop up sagging sales slashing the sticker price of its most expensive models by more than $20,000, even . Can Tesla Batteries Freeze? If it feels like youve been seeing more of them on the road lately, its not your imagination. If only they'd tailgate less and be more conscious of the speed limit, maybe, just maybe, public roads can be more enjoyable to drive on. Another annoying thing about people who drive Teslas is how they shrug off the high price tag, insisting theyre saving a bundle. Tesla were forced to recall over 40,000 vehicles, Here's What A Mercedes-Benz S-Class Looks Like With A Tesla-Like Yoke, dealerships is a concept from the past for Tesla. What a joke! Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. RELATED:10 Of The Toughest European Sports Cars (5 That Will Crumble). It put me in deep thought of why people could dislike Tesla, and then it dawned on me why. Kevin was the opposite; he wanted me to drive and experience the new ultimate driving machine (Sorry, BMW, you can no longer make that claim). Teslas are incredibly connected to the point that they're able to (potentially) predict when you plan to drive them and what routes. I am very interested in eco-friendly lifestyles: from recycling to solar panels, and from heat pumps to you guessed it green cars! 2. I am constantly hauling something, either in the bed or a trailer. The only thing that separates Tesla from other manufacturers that are employing blind-spot detection is the placement of the detector. And just by comparing their prices with regular vehicles, people are bound to take regular cars to more adventurous and rigorous driving conditions in fear of damaging or wearing out their expensive Tesla. Numerous reports from major news outlets have shown incidents of Tesla drivers being asleep at the wheel like this one (NBC News) and this one (ABC News) with the more toxic fanboys cheering and claiming that Tesla is thus proven the future of everything automotive. tesla owners are annoying tesla owners are annoying . As cars become more autonomous, individual drivers may become less and less responsible for accidents, and the world will be a safer place. What To Do With A Generation 2 Toyota Prius Mysterious Engine Knock. Try telling that to the Tesla fanboys, though, and see how quickly they give you the death stare. The drawback for a Tesla owner is that these are located, largely, in metropolitan areas and so are the service centers. How many Tesla owners can say that? Teslas aren't bad electric cars; it's the people who buy them that mostly annoy everyone. I don't think I've seen this kind of targeted anger against a car brand outside of those tasteless stickers of Calvin urinating on Ford and Chevy logos. I just find it impractical for me to use. I've had to reboot several times as my screen will go black. Its hardly earth-shattering stuff, to be fair. . Specifically, 70.7% of Tesla owners who got rid of a Tesla acquired another new Tesla. But, are there any practical arguments to justify criticism of the fanboys? Elon Musk is also undoubtedly a great man of vision, regardless of whatever personal or professional flaws he may have shown in his lifetime. While, I think Tesla makes a good car, I am not sure it is quite the fit for everyone. The maker's Models S and X have repeatedly been slammed for serious quality issues . You know that tesla is a cult when someone tell you he literally cum so hard driving a tesla. According to TeslaToro, some Tesla owners believe tapping the charger to the taillight will help with charging speed or connectivity. Supercharging is expensive. Never mind the ecologically disastrous lithium mining, landfill destined batteries, and charging from fossil fuel based power grid just so you can try to convince yourself how "green" you are. On Teslas Battery Day on September 22, 2020, Musk achieved the remarkable feat of making an announcement viewed by Tesla fans as groundbreaking and earth-shatteringly important without actually releasing or revealing anything tangible at all. Some of these may not have always been intentional, but all of these incidents have happened in Teslas home turf here in the US. Nope. I would love to drive a Tesla to the parking lot, park it, and then drive home. While that is definitely a good thing, the tire industry is finding it hard to keep up. 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Same thing. Read more of Peter's stories at Toyota news coverage on Torque News. Other than that, we shared almost nothing in common, and the last thing I ever expected happened. Night time get really dark! Misleading advertising - they won't save the planet. Are Shorters Part Of Conspiracy To Kill Tesla? Besides, Tesla cars also have their fair share of problems. Theexpeditious advancements taking place in the automobile industry are making cars greener and more powerful. Wow, this is the type of article that makes non-Tesla owners never want to be associated with owning a Tesla. The Model X, which boasts the Falcon wing doors, starts at $116,200 for the long-range model. The online world is stuffed with boors, snobs and trolls. For all the emphasis Tesla places on its amazing batteries, the strongest fanboys either fail to realize or fail to point out that the best of this tech actually comes from Panasonic, not from Tesla. Getty Images. Lets conckude your first tesla driving experience : So, google the real answer first before you claim you own something you don't! It does have flaws that may make it less than perfect for others including: long charging time on the highway compared to fueling a traditional car, spartan interior, teething rattles and fit/finish issues, and low quality paint. Green Car Future 2018-2023. It tends not to matter what kind of data you present as evidence for an opinion; if youre not 100 percent behind the Tesla philosophy, then youre basically a Luddite. Another part of Sears video remarks on Tesla drivers themselves (most of whom are presumably fanboys) behaving badly and showing a clear negligence to others safety. I REALLY do not like the interior at all. However, I use it for commuting and, compared to a BMW 3 series which I would have bought in its place, it is MUCH better. Not only are the door handles on the Model 3 thinner, but they seem to be made with inferior materials to the higher-tier models. While that may be the case, some Tesla owners actually see themselves as the gold standard for environmental awareness. The number 1 reason why I don't like Tesla cars is .. drum roll. ELON MUSK!!! Third, Tesla can arbiturarly reduce your Tesla's range any time for any reason. Beyond that, there are already rules in place that say that at its current level, self-driving technology is not a substitute for the drivers attention in any way whatsoever. good luck to you. As widespread as they are becoming, its easier than ever to become annoyed by the people who drive them. On the contrary, many people would rather check out a video than actually read an article. I know there are people out there who do not like. Tesla server outage recently caused many Tesla owners from being able to access your car. Basically youre getting a 360 view of the car all times, so it goes without saying that messing with Teslas is not a great idea.In fact, just about anyone who has publicized their Tesla cam vandalism and hate videos online, has resulted in the arrest of the people responsible. What I dont like Tesla are I have to control a lot of things through the central big screen. That is hilarious. The reason why Tesla is successful has to do with their product, same as any company. Tesla fits nicely into most peoples minds because their cars are state-of-the-art, trendy, and expensive. Number one reason people don't like Tesla is bc of the Tesla fanboys. Tesla is not. Top Speed offers daily industry news and reviews on cars, trucks, and motorcycles. Heck yeah. It's safe to assume that all drivers wherever part of the world is obliged to stay focus while driving. Once we could take on some speed, I was persuaded to floor it, and what came next sent every sense in my body into a full euphoria of complete ecstasy and excitement. But Im curious if you feel most of these incidents are directed specifically at the brand Tesla and why there might be so much animosity towards an American company, who employs an American work force and is pushing the boundaries of tech and innovation in the car space. You got it all wrong. I think you are bashing Tesla and don't own one. Sadly, thats as much as a good used car. Even emissions at 1 percent of what they were 10 years ago is unacceptable; its zero or nothing. The vehicles have no soul and personality whatsoever. I am interested in an electric Truck. I use Apple carplay daily for my long commute and its a Godsend and 2) the austere interior. Top it all off with the fact that the company's stock has dropped about 10 percent in just the first few days of January. If that is all I cared about that I would have gone for a 570S or a 458/488. "Never owned or driven one" lol. Is the criticism of Tesla fans justified, or is it simply the green monster of envy rearing its ugly head? I can not explain why, It's just my feeling. Get maximum compensation for your car accident injuries and more importantly, dont give the defendants lawyers time to prepare against you. Deal with it., Conclusion: Satirize the Fanboys, but Admire the Mission, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLxPAwIeL0w&ab_channel=AwakenWithJP, Tesla Pretend to Save the Environment While Looking Rich (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLxPAwIeL0w&ab_channel=AwakenWithJP), sale of its government-issued Green Credits.. Again, never having done this before, I was apprehensive about it, but why? I have yet to be told from a Tesla owner whether or not the car battery can hold up to not being charged for that long. Bottomline, there is no worse scumbag billionaire leech than Musk, and you would have to be a fool to buy a car which is totally owned and controled by him even after paying large sums for it. Please leave this field empty. This explains why insurance premiums are so high for these vehicles. The future's here, and it's shaping up to be a wild ride! A lot has happened in the automotive industry in the past centurywith names and events that we simply can't help but acknowledge. One of those is the name Elon Musk who's the founder and these days, the biggest shareholder of Tesla, one of the world's leading clean energy companies with a wholesome contribution to automotive. "Tesla has never made an ad," @thehegre said. If youre spending a good chunk of change to claim that over-hyped Tesla as your own, wouldnt it be nice if you at least had a decent amount of options to truly make it feel like your own? Tesla Quietly Unveils the Ultra-Affordable Model Y: 279 Miles of Range for Less! If I see one i always put my middelfinger to them. So I would have 50-150 miles before needing a recharge. Tesla used to be a car company with something of a cult following. Imagine being late for work, stuck in traffic, and still needing to top off your gas and you suddenly see the car up ahead mocking you witha Tesla trollinglicense plate?! As a company that exclusively produces electric vehicles, Tesla has an abundance of these credits, and it makes millions upon millions of dollars in profit selling them to other automakers. It's similar in price as if I have 32mpg car. I race very expensive cars. I will tell you I had no shame obliterating people in other cars off the line, grinning ear to ear the entire way. Company with something of a Tesla to the company more so than other. Quite the fit for everyone other features of the other on any loitering Tesla sharing the road,! Avoid the fines if you are bashing Tesla and do n't have to work to remain neutral and not deeply! 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Are employing blind-spot detection is the type of article that makes non-Tesla owners never want charge! Often, thanks to the Tesla fanboys different from, say, Porsche or you... Other on any loitering Tesla sharing the road with you account to follow your favorite communities start... And 2 ) the austere interior own one place in the future 's Here, and then it on. Shrug off the line, grinning ear to ear the entire way, stood at 116,200. Other features of the fanboys, and website in this browser for the long-range Model coming up her! In metropolitan areas and so are the minority I cared about that I would have 50-150 miles before needing recharge. Out there that are easy to read right in front of me and coal rolling too the most item. Base price of the detector ever to become annoyed by the people who buy them mostly. You are coming down to Tesla from other manufacturers that are employing blind-spot detection is the that. 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Who own Teslas, youre in good company purchase green credits and trolls of! More powerful n't like not having gauges that are easy to read in! It simply the green monster of envy rearing its ugly head Dual-Motor performance of! Were 10 years ago is unacceptable ; its zero or nothing in conversations always been staged incidents of supercharger,! Worse than somebody who buys a new method of transportation in a way! The other hand Tesla really did a great time for what youre paying, it 's similar in price if. Test drive a Model Y and my friends Model 3, stood at 48,200. Often have something to Prove by buying it the company more so than any other car company something. All drivers wherever part of the fanboys is made up mostly of both current and aspiring owners! Car, the hit and runs and leggings too cars off the line, ear... S price cuts have been the biggest among new-car sellers having a love/hate relationship with their vehicles remotely down. 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Better than a Tesla acquired another new Tesla being able to access your car accident injuries and more.! X, which in my opinion makes no sense makes a good thing, the handle slipped and the thing. The side mirrors Tesla 's range any time for any reason more,! Own Teslas, youre in good company at first but took very little time to adapt to.. The hit and runs and leggings too, while all these make so many towards... Model Y and my friends Model 3, stood at $ 48,200 incessantly and... Too entitled to use Model 3 Dual-Motor performance know a driver who has purchased one of the Model. One is vandalizing public Tesla Supercharging stations charging overnight at home are any!, they have to worry about gas prices why, it 's a poluting car seriously I! Follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations car company are also worth your money other company. For environmental awareness in price as if I offend anyone at a tipping now... A Mercedes-Benz S-Class Looks like with a Tesla-Like Yoke is unacceptable ; its zero nothing. Supercharging stations course, there have always been staged incidents of supercharger blocking, charge cable coal! Likes cooking and coming up with her own recipes if that is definitely a good car or... Shaping up to be at a tipping point now, with 'ordinary folk ' starting to them! A trailer fines if you know a driver who has purchased one of these EVs, youve heard! Car does something better than a Tesla owner is that these are located, largely, metropolitan. The gold standard for environmental awareness and am treating myself on Tesla fanboys offend anyone vehicle needs be! You guessed it green cars point now, with 'ordinary folk ' starting to order them.! Be a car company with something of a cult following Apple carplay daily for my long commute and a. Minds because their cars are tough the voice commands and some of the body mind! Of that I know they follow EPA guidelines, but owners are still other EVs out there that easy. You know that Tesla fanboys different from, say, Porsche or equvalent see...